Pros/Cons removing balance shafts

[stealth]

mate i beg to differ
as there would be a DIFFERANCE in hp /torque as your not trying to accelerate
the pump ,receipracting parts and weight accleration make a huge differance
cheers stealth

[rob440]

I was thinking this truck oil pump might be a good item to try making a group buy?

[Rallyant]

ok, so I need the pump, sprocket and the chain ( seals and gaskets of course )
will u post to Qld?
rob

you will also need the chain tensioner Ill take some pics today/tonight IF i can get my camera working! to show what it looks like,
Yeah I can post to QLD

no HP increase from an oil pump change, some from removing the ballance shafts. They are after high RPM reliability, a std engine wont go there.....

I would be surprised if there was no increase in HP from changing the pump.
With ever doubling of engine RPM the standard pump goes up 2x in RPM where as the forklift pump goes up closer to .5x in RPM
Eg, engines spining at 2000rpm the std pump is 4000rpm, forklift is a little over 1000rpm, Then rev up to 4000rpm the std pump is doing 8000rpm and the forklift is closer to 2000rpm)
With the std pump, thats a 2000rpm inchreas in engine rpm and a 4000rpm increase in pump rpm
With the Forklift pump thats a 2000rpm engine and closer to 1000rpm pump increase
If the oil pumps double there oil flow with every doubling of its RPM? then the std pump is going to be wasting a lot of power and oil out the relief at hi RPM

[Rally_2.6LC]

It would be a great group buy (might get the cost down a little, as pump alone is $251, then gasket and shaft). And there is at least a 15-20hp gain (according to Ron Masing from Coltspeed, as well as some of my friends who have done this to their rally cars).

What im going to do is get the balance shaft removal kit from ebay so i then have the right length chain and the top balance shaft oil hole block thingy (yea i know, real technical). I have heard people say "just spin the bearing around 180 degreese, however the bearing spins with the part that bolts onto the block, so the bearing would have to be taken off and spun around (and quite frankly I cant be bothered with that and adusting the chain....ill just get the new one).


Cheers Matt

[Torana68]

[quote="Rally_2.6LC"]It would be a great group buy (might get the cost down a little, as pump alone is $251, then gasket and shaft). And there is at least a 15-20hp gain (according to Ron Masing from Coltspeed, as well as some of my friends who have done this to their rally cars). /quote]

... that would be going form balance shafts to no balance shafts, I think 20 HP from an oil pump is a ridiculous claim, Ive heard high figures for the shaft removal and consider it dubious, wheres the dyno sheets? never trust word of mouth...

[Rallyant]

How much power do you think it would take to spin a magna pump at 18,000rpm with 80 or even 60psi ? im guessing a hell of a lot more than spining balance shafts.
Or more to the point, how much more power do you think it would take than spinning a forklift pump at 4000rpm with 60psi?
this is exactly what they engine would have to be doing at 8000rpm.

I dont think there would be much if any gain at low RPMs with a fork pump.

If someone does organize a GP count me in on one, I only need a pump tho, not the chain and rest of the kit.

[cheaterparts]

It would be a great group buy (might get the cost down a little, as pump alone is $251, then gasket and shaft). And there is at least a 15-20hp gain (according to Ron Masing from Coltspeed, as well as some of my friends who have done this to their rally cars).
Cheers Matt

I think 20 HP from an oil pump is a ridiculous claim, Ive heard high figures for the shaft removal and consider it dubious, wheres the dyno sheets? never trust word of mouth...

I must say I agree - 10 % of this claim is prob closer to the mark

ie - atm I have made 160 rwhp N/A ( I guess thats 200 -210 at the crank ) with a std pump
at std speed
so with the 20 Hp claim if I change to a forklift pump that is 220 -230 Hp or about 175 rwhp
sh!t why spend the money on seting up 50 mm quads fitting that bigger cam doing more port work to try and pick up this amount of hp
where for $ 250 I could get that so easy - I dont think so !!

my guess removing the balance shafts is good for 2 - 5 hp at best and the pump 2 - 3
any one that has a dyno sheet that shows better than that I would be interested

[Rallyant]

Might as well chuck one in and give it a quick dyno cheater

[Torana68]

... Ill go 2HP difference with the pump which probably isnt measureable, Ill go 5 on the ballance shaft removal ,BUT it needs to be dyno'd or it didnt happen, the number of people who spruke HP figures but havent even seen a dyno is amazing. The number on here who have had a car on a dyno that they built the engine in is probbaly 3 and Im one of them. DONT quote HP figures unless you have a dyno sheet you can post to back it up, just makes the whole place smell when that starts happening....

and Ill add asking someone to chuck one in and dyno it shows a lack of knowledge in the time and cost involved, you are probably expecting the guy to spend $2k of his own money and time to test a part when a change of gearing (sprocket ) would do but anyways hes not having any problems with his current set up? put your hand in your own pocket! WONT HAPPEN!

[Rallyant]

... Ill go 2HP difference with the pump which probably isnt measureable, Ill go 5 on the ballance shaft removal ,BUT it needs to be dyno'd or it didnt happen, the number of people who spruke HP figures but havent even seen a dyno is amazing. The number on here who have had a car on a dyno that they built the engine in is probbaly 3 and Im one of them. DONT quote HP figures unless you have a dyno sheet you can post to back it up, just makes the whole place smell when that starts happening....

and Ill add asking someone to chuck one in and dyno it shows a lack of knowledge in the time and cost involved, you are probably expecting the guy to spend $2k of his own money and time to test a part when a change of gearing (sprocket ) would do but anyways hes not having any problems with his current set up? put your hand in your own pocket! WONT HAPPEN!

Posts like that is what makes this place stink, not quoting HP numbers. As far as i can see people have made it pretty clear they have only heard these hp #s from other people and given there sources, And not done a back to back dyno them self, and then spoken about the possible reasons for this been or not been tru.
I have built my own motors, 2 x 4g54 turbo setups and started on an NA build. I have hand them dynod and have the prints to prove it.
I have known cheaterparts for almost 10 years now and that comment was tongue in cheek. He has been known to quickly chuck a motor back together to join in on dyno days over the road from a factory he use to work at.

I would not be suprised if the power gain from the pump swap was not as large as Ron sais it is, but id also be suprised if there was no gain.
If we realy want to find out all you need to do is phisicly spin the pump to whatever RPM your testing and measure the power needed to spin the puimp (while pumping oil) Would need to seup some kind of electric motor with a chain on it for that.

[Torana68]

[]

Posts like that is what makes this place stink, not quoting HP numbers.

tuff , I get tired of the whole my car does 10's but woops I cant prove it and the it'll add 20 HP thing without proof , cant prove it dont say it, for now Ill just say what I think.


I have known cheaterparts for about 10 years now and that comment was tongue in cheek.

and I was supposed to know that how???

If we realy want to find out all you need to do is phisicly spin the pump to whatever RPM your testing and measure the power needed to spin the puimp (while pumping oil) Would need to seup some kind of electric motor with a chain on it for that.[/quote]

not even that go google hydraulic pump HP chart and read it off there, it will be close.

[Rallyant]

tuff , I get tired of the whole my car does 10's but woops I cant prove it and the it'll add 20 HP thing without proof , cant prove it dont say it, for now Ill just say what I think.

"cant prove it dont say it" You have been stating that changing to a forklift pump will not give a power increase with NO dyno proof.
Quit nit picking and enjoy this great forum we have!

and I was supposed to know that how???

because of my big smile at the end of the sentience

[lpgalant]

damn, im out of popcorn, my 2 cents worth lol, seriously, its like saying if i increase timing and run premium, im gonna make 10 hp at the flywheel more, and all for just 30 seconds with a timing light and 6 cents a litre extra at the pump, way cheaper than goin this pump, lol, do as stealth says, spend the MONEY wisely and u will reap the benefits, build a serious engine with rods, pistons, cam, ignition, webers or efi, forced and natural and enjoy the rewards, and use a ENGINE BUILDER, not a gregorys. balance shaft removal does 1 thing, can any body answer this 1 question, lets see, stealth and cheater, dont say nothin lol, lets see if anybody here really knows lol, i think i know. and secondly, does anybody know the real reason this ugly pieces of s--t are really in there for, once again stealth and cheater, lets see how many people really know the reason..............

[astronturbo77]

adding a forklift pump WILL NOT GIVE YOU A EXTRA 20HP. PEROID.

[lpgalant]

itll probably give 1.2418954 of a hp at flywheel, lol

[rob440]

Balance shaft
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

Code: Select all

there is some debate as to how much power the twin balance shafts cost the engine. The basic figure given is usually around 15 hp (11 kW), but this may be excessive for pure friction losses. It is possible that this is a miscalculation derived from the common use of an inertial dynamometer, which calculates power from angular acceleration rather than actual measurement of steady state torque. The 15 hp (11 kW), then, includes both the actual frictional loss as well as the increase in angular inertia of the rapidly rotating shafts, which would not be a factor at steady speed. Nevertheless, some owners modify their engines by removing the balance shafts, both to reclaim some of this power and to reduce complexity and potential areas of breakage for high performance and racing use, as it is commonly (but falsely) believed that the smoothness provided by the balance shafts can be attained after their removal by careful balancing of the reciprocating components of the engine.

[Rallyant]

itll probably give 1.2418954 of a hp at flywheel, lol

according to my calculations thats probably about right

I had tried searching for pump HP needs with no luck, but Torana68s advice to search for hydraulic pump hp chart came up with HEAPs of stuff, Id have to agree it would be close enough to be accurate with our pumps.

Anyone know what a sigma and magna pump flow per revolution?
by my ROUGH calculations the forklift pump flows about 15cc per rev
So with the engine reving at 7000rpm it would chew about .5 hp (>13 GPM)


if the flow of the sigma was the same then it would only chew about 1.9 hp) (74gpm) the 80psi of the magna pump would take that to 2.5hp plus the 1/3 wider gears would put that over 3hp
But thats still no where near 20hp claimed by Ron!!!


But the main point raised for the use of the fork pump was cavitation.
and with an extra 61gpm of oil been pumped i would no be suprised, If the forklift pump at 13gpm has enough oil flow for the motor then
the magna pump is spiting at least 61gpm out the relief valve, Thats about 4ltrs a second at 7000rpm (sounds a little high to me) but if tru that makes the sigma/magna pump into a nice 2hp oil heater )

If this were true and it was flowing that much (the full sump of oil every second.) i would not be suprised if Ron was sucking air and not just cavitating?

Im guessing however that it would flow about the same as the fork pump at idel, (500 fork pump rpm = 4000 sigma pump rpm) ?
If so they would flow about the same and chew the same power

To avoid anyone getting offended, i should add I dont know the flow rate of the sigma and magna pumps and only have a rough measurement of the fork pump, but I personally like food for thought and hope others do to?

I dont expect everyone building up a motor to go and buy a new forklift pump for the job, But there a hell of a lot cheaper than a new sigma or magna oil pump last time i checked, and i do know of people that have bought them when rebuilding a motor with no balance shafts!

I spent about 12k building up my last motor, including fuel system, turbo and computer etc. so an extra $250 - 400 on an oil pump was a cheap piece of mind.

[MrBishi]

So have any of you that have used the forklift pump encountered oil drainback on cold startup?

[stealth]

surprize surprize noones answering lp's question
rallant you guys are CLAIMING that a forklift pump is high volume
let thay flow less than other pumps
to work it out on a built engine you need a spintron(reverse dyno)that spin engine
without it starting and tells you hp/torque required to turn engine at given rpm
build an engine bring it in and ill spin it for you it only costs about $300 an hour
to run!
on a stock astron theres 7hp for removal of shafts and i dont use the low volume
pumps as there more costy and id rather pay for parts that make a difference in a
positve direction
cheers stealth

[Torana68]

surprize surprize noones answering lp's question
rallant you guys are CLAIMING that a forklift pump is high volume
let thay flow less than other pumps
to work it out on a built engine you need a spintron(reverse dyno)that spin engine
without it starting and tells you hp/torque required to turn engine at given rpm
build an engine bring it in and ill spin it for you it only costs about $300 an hour
to run!

nah (well you could.. ) as previous post you can do it on a std dyno, BUT that will involve using an engine as supplied, dyno it, then a prartial strip to pull the shafts etc, another dyno, partial strip different pump and back on the dyno probably 2k worth if its your mate, its doable on a sunday if anyone wants to spend the time and money but as RALLYANT has found

"if the flow of the sigma was the same then it would only chew about 1.9 hp) (74gpm) the 80psi of the magna pump would take that to 2.5hp plus the 1/3 wider gears would put that over 3hp
But thats still no where near 20hp claimed by Ron!!!
as I said before the guy wants your money, you can tell from the price for the "RACE" (?) pump hes full of it , there I spat it out, Ive delt with him before but never bought anything for good reason. Beware the sprukers who are selling stuff unless they can proudly show off a dyno sheet (which still can be an issue but its a better guide) or have proven track times.

on a stock astron theres 7hp for removal of shafts and i dont use the low volume
pumps as there more costy and id rather pay for parts that make a difference in a
positve direction
cheers stealth

crap... gotta agree. Im thinking maybe these dodgy figures came from someone who dyno'd their old engine then after bebuild with shafts gone ( some people used to do this, dyno the car on arrival and after, not a bad thing), obviously if the owner paid for a freshen AND shaft removal its gunna have easy 10-20 hp more than the tired engine that came in.. maybe. So off he goes to the "Forum" claiming a 20 HP increase for the shaft removal and off go the spankers telling everyone....
P.S you dont need a dyno to see bulls^%$

[Torana68]

and if the next question is "who would you go to then?" Id be doing it myself if I felt the need for an ANCHORTRON, which I dont but the guys at RPW in perth have a good knowledge of the Anchor..
this is a NA engine in a Galant coupe:
12.920 @ 103 mph at Quit Motorplex 13/01/01 running Version 7 Motor with street extractors and gear changes at 8000 rpm!

23/11/01 - Version 8 motor dyno'd at 180hp @ 7000 rpm rear wheels with overloaded ignition system and no muffler.
I saw the time slips I saw the car. Contact them as I dont think they changed the oil pump but they have expereience in high RPM egines and real development, not an add its what I have seen them do.

[Rallyant]

So have any of you that have used the forklift pump encountered oil drainback on cold startup?

I have only driven my car about twice since i put the pump in, having some clearance issues with the dump in the coupe, was fine in the sedan with no brake booster. but like you the old car got put aside and is awaiting some love but I have not noticed any problems. Will let you know soon as this car is back on the road/track very soon (cheater!)

surprize surprize noones answering lp's question
rallant you guys are CLAIMING that a forklift pump is high volume
let thay flow less than other pumps
cheers stealth

I have NEVER claimed that the forklift pump was a hi flow pump, If you actually read my posts you would see i have been claiming that the potential problem with the sigma/magna pumps is that they may very well flow too much at hi RPM. And therefore wast power, and cavitate at hi rpm

I didnt bother answering LPs questons for 2 reasons,
1. anyone that knows how to use google can look it up and read all about second order vibrations.
and
2. unlike some people on here, i dont have an ego that needs to be fed.
Or tho im all for the Socratic teaching method, I dont think that was the intent of LGs question?
Im not interested in pointing out and teaching people how little they know, Im interested in teaching them what they need to know.
The less people know the more help they need, not more ridicule.

Im more interested in teaching and learning from people why and why not to do certain things,
I see a LOT of Do and Dont do this or that cos i say so and your to stupid to understand why, so I wont bother explaining the reasons. So just do what I say.
Take the time to educate with information guys!
were all on the same team here! were all lovers of these oldschool mits cars, comon, wheres the love

and if the next question is "who would you go to then?" Id be doing it myself if I felt the need for an ANCHORTRON, which I dont but the guys at RPW in perth have a good knowledge of the Anchor..
this is a NA engine in a Galant coupe:
12.920 @ 103 mph at Quit Motorplex 13/01/01 running Version 7 Motor with street extractors and gear changes at 8000 rpm!

23/11/01 - Version 8 motor dyno'd at 180hp @ 7000 rpm rear wheels with overloaded ignition system and no muffler.
I saw the time slips I saw the car. Contact them as I dont think they changed the oil pump but they have expereience in high RPM egines and real development, not an add its what I have seen them do.

Last I spoke to them they ran a cast iron oil pump of some kind, i think the same as std pump.
When talking to scott satch http://web.archive.org/web/200504091727 ... .6Cars.htm about it all he said they use to talk to him a lot for setup info on these engines. Like everyone else, we can learn a lot from other poeple.
I dont know if the above link works or not? if not just search t-racing.com/Racing2.6Cars.htm with it, Its an old site a mate of mine from USA use to run.

[cheaterparts]

23/11/01 - Version 8 motor dyno'd at 180hp @ 7000 rpm rear wheels with overloaded ignition system and no muffler.
I saw the time slips I saw the car. Contact them as (I dont think they changed the oil pump ) but they have expereience in high RPM egines and real development, not an add its what I have seen them do.

Dave use to sell a cast iron H/V pump from memory - in the early days of running the sigma
I was looking for a H/V pump myself being worried about the std one
from my running I'm more than happy with the std pump ( as I've aready said ) but I'm keen on gearing it down

RPW not only had great results for there galant but it was a test bed and there is a fair chance they were using one of there cast pumps

[Mitsiman]

Hi everyone, been a long time since I have been on any Sigma forums, but with our galant being resurected again, time to do some searching.

I hadn't seen the forklift oil pump before but it is certainly a viable second option to consider. Although personally, we have ourselves always run the Mellings high volume pumps ourselves.

The main problems we had with the alloy ones, in reality, is that they warp badly and leak like a sift. This is one of the reasons they had oil pressure problems because the pump itself didn't seal properly within itself, and took time to get enough pressure to pressurise the rest of the motor. The mellings cast iron pumps were of a much higher qaulity and were defintly sealed better.

We have never had a problem with cavitation on our engines, but we learn't early on that the problem was not so much the pump pick, but the lack or oil being returned back to the sump pan. The main issue with the astron engine , is that too much oil sits on the top of the cylinder head and takes too long to get back down to the sump pan at high rpm, which people mistakenly put down to cavitation. The oil pump was cavitating, but only because of oil starvation, not rpms

What we ahve always done is used electric fuel pumps, and on the fuel pump outlet on the cylinder head, setup a oil return line back to the sump to drain more oil back to the sump pan faster. Commen trick from speedway vehicles. Doing this we have never had an issue with oil pressure / volume etc.

Deleting the balance shafts is worth around 5hp / 5tq, but worth years of improved reliability. The motor does rev faster and easier as well. Some vehicles can have a vibration, but if the crank / rods and pistons are nuetral balanced, as opposed to balanced as a complete rotating assembly, it is not usually an issue. We measured stock conrods out of engines and woudl find up to a 30gram difference between one to the next.

I will try to be more active on the forums now that our galant is going again, but will leave all that to another post.

[Rallyant]

We have never had a problem with cavitation on our engines, but we learn't early on that the problem was not so much the pump pick, but the lack or oil being returned back to the sump pan. The main issue with the astron engine , is that too much oil sits on the top of the cylinder head and takes too long to get back down to the sump pan at high rpm, which people mistakenly put down to cavitation. The oil pump was cavitating, but only because of oil starvation, not rpm

This makes scene to me, And if they were flowing too much, they could end up sucking dry a lot sooner than a fork pump. Still need to find out the flow rates to work all that our for sure tho.

Welcome aboard, Dave, if i remember correctly? Good to hear you have resurrected the Galant! look forward to seeing what you do with it, were doing some kind of turbo setup last i remember?

[rob440]

I have 2 questions,
MrBishi, , you have the "forklift pump" is it alloy or Iron housing?
Mitsiman , the mellings pump is iron housing?.



rob

[Mitsiman]

Yes our car is now turbo'd running currently a low boosting system but eventually with a better built motor higher boost.

Yes the mellings pumps are a cast iron housing.

[stealth]

hi mitsiman
good to see people with knowledge turning up here
anyway do you guys use a restrictor in the head as this helps
greatly with over feed to the head
and the sigma style pumps are ok but require no less than 5lt in
the sump if you want to see 8grand for prolonged periods
looking forward to seeing pics of the G
cheers stealth

[Torana68]

hi mitsiman
good to see people with knowledge turning up here
cheers stealth

yep its been lonely on here ROFLAO................ lots of people with knowledge just need to get people to listen, and learn how to spot bullsh&*, now that the pump issue is sorted (no ones really going to buy the "other" pump now are they?) everyones chucking the ballance shafts, yes? good ,now about those wonderfull inline fuel converters and an electric turbo off ebay and Ill have at least an extre 200 hp for nearly nothing.....

[stealth]

just lean forward and squint as you drive i belive that this is
equivelent to NOS
its funny no one ever wants to spends there money on anything
good but will buy different things at will
cheers stealth