OK, so what would you do, 2.6 or 2.4?

[75wagon]

I'm trying to work out which way to go for a motor in my new project wagon.

What I have is:
- a complete 4G54 Astron 1 with standard carb (wideblock)
- 5 speed long shifter (wideblock)
- tailshaft to match
- 2.6 into Galant modded extractors and complete exhaust system to suit a Galant also
- a 4G52 (condition unknown)

So the question is this:
What would you do if you wanted more power then what a Saturn can give and were using what I have available above?
I want to use the 2.6 as a base because I have it.
I picked up the 4G52 from Tj this weekend just to give me the option of 2.4? Has anyone done this and not gone turbo? I only know of one member who has done the 2.4 and his is turbo'd. Is it worth going 2.4 or should I just stay 2.6?

I need help on which direction I should go with induction too. Stock solex, twin solex, EFI, or quad carb?

Advice or ideas will be appreciated. Obviously, opinions from those that have actually done this/these conversion/s will be highly regarded.

Just for the record. I have no interest in going turbo. I know this will disappoint, but I just don't have that much coin (I'm including speeding tickets and loss of license in this too).

Dave...

[ddt]

If i was doing a 2.4 with cost and ongoing reliability concerns, i'd consider getting one of those refurbished webers on Ebay; they say to quote 2L or 2.6 when ordering but i'm sure they'd be able to set it up for a 2.4. Dunno how you'd go about getting EFI to work on a 2.4L..

Quad carbs are way cool but just the thought of keeping all 4 in the same state of tune freaks me out. It's easy to troubleshoot a single carb running too lean or rich -but four individual carbs..

[75wagon]

Dunno how you'd go about getting EFI to work on a 2.4L..

The EFI should measure and meter itself
I was planning (if going that way) on running a completely stock TR/TS Magna set up. I've read a few times that the TR/TS manifold won't fit under a Galant bonnet, so I'll have to do some measuring. But the throttle body needs to be swapped around anyway, so I'll cut it off above the joiner (as they are a 2 part manifold) and take height out of it at the same time as turning it around and re welding.

Dave...

[A57C]

i turbo'd one of my cars just to see what being fast is all about
certainly fun in certain situations
but i can't say that i like the car any more or less for it

[GB_BB4C]

TR/S inlet manifold wont fit between the head and strut tower.
Pic was taken in my mates GD Coupe.
Run a TN/P manifold and use all the TR/S stuff.

[astronturbo77]

2.6 turbo, 2.4 isnt worth the effort

[A112H]

+1 for 2.6 turbo
If you don't want to go turbo the through some flat tops at the 54 and chuck the 52 head on it, big lumpy cam and twin side draughts

[75wagon]

2.6 turbo, 2.4 isnt worth the effort

I was looking at upping the compression during the build anyway (especially if I decide to go with the Astron 2 head for EFI). So I was going to have to put higher top pistons in anyway.
So my question is, is there more work then that to put the 2 litre crank in? If so what's involved? I'm learning here, or trying to?

TR/S inlet manifold wont fit between the head and strut tower.

OK, I must have read wrong. So it's the sideways clearance that's the problem?
Thanks very much for the pic. I really appreciate it

+1 for 2.6 turbo

I haven't got any turbo stuff at all, and I don't think I can afford to go that way anyway?
I'm not going to pretend anything here.
My coin is limited, and I'd rather spend money on shiny then fast.

Don't forget this is going to be a total build of a car, and I am starting from scratch (as scratch as a stock 1600 auto GD wagon gets).
There are other things I'm looking into on this build other then the motor.
I am after a good balanced package that is good to drive, without throwing all of my money into one area, and having the others suffer.

I'm also looking at handling and stopping.
If it's going to go better then a standard Galant, then it needs to do both of those things better too.
It won't be a strip or track demon, but it will be driven spiritedly on tight twisty stuff. That's the type of driving I enjoy most. And for anyone who has seen me drive my GC wagon in these conditions, they would be able to tell you I can make the most I have of very little.

Trust me, the 2.6 will be enough of a boost on it's own, without a turbo.

Dave...

[astronturbo77]

flat tops, high compression, speak to some engine builders about the highest you can run on 98 octane or e85... 11.5:1, efi with a cheap aftermarket ecu and some good tuned length extractors, might crack 100kw

[GB_BB4C]

TR/S inlet manifold wont fit between the head and strut tower.

OK, I must have read wrong. So it's the sideways clearance that's the problem?
Thanks very much for the pic. I really appreciate it

Dave...

Nope ya havnt read wrong. There is still a height issue for clearance to the bonnet. Was just pointing out that a TR/S inlet manifold will not fit into a Galant.

Here is a pic of my modified TP Plenum which takes a TR/S Throttle Body. Height has also been taken out.

A stock plenum vs a modified one. As you can see about 1inch has been taken out of the height.



Just curious as to why you are you thinking of going 2.4?? Is this to avoid getting an engineers report, or just for something different??

[Torana68]

[quote="75wagon"]
So the question is this:
I want to use the 2.6 as a base because I have it.

if you must have an Anchortron use the 2.6 , capacity rules.... 2 , 2.4 or 2.6 youll need an engineers anyway

I need help on which direction I should go with induction too. Stock solex, twin solex, EFI, or quad carb?

EFI will clean things up and you might need it to get registered anyway (depending on age of the block) stock solex is not an exciting option, twin solex wont go as well as EFI . Youll need the pollution equipment for the engine you have so Id suggest finding the oldest block you can (ask your engineer for advice, net advice is crap and usually out of date or wrong, lots of things in NSW have changed recently)

[webby]

if i had the money (which i hope will be soon ) i'd be building a 2.4 with ~10.5:1 comp, lightened and balanced bottom end, a fairly large cam and individual throttles tuned by someone who knows what they're doing.
Mainly for something different, but i've also heard that the de-stroker option retains the power potential of the 2.6 whilst being a somewhat revvier engine, due to the near-square bore/stroke ratio the 90mm stroke gives?
I don't know, i've never actually seen one but if it's true wouldn't the extra revability be worth it? I mean, the 2.6 is a bit of a truck engine so anything that makes it rev easier would be worth it, right?
That's my 2c anyway, take it, leave it, flame it, doesn't bother me

[C_Fernance]

It won't be a strip or track demon, but it will be driven spiritedly on tight twisty stuff. That's the type of driving I enjoy most. And for anyone who has seen me drive my GC wagon in these conditions, they would be able to tell you I can make the most I have of very little.

I'd be tempted to go a modded 2.4 as well Dave. The 2.6 makes OK power and heaps of torque. Great if you want to tow a trailer around, but compared to something newer with twin-cams, a saturn or even a 2.0 Astron they just don't like to rev. The harder you rev them the more asthmatic they feel. If you want to go playing in the twisties, throwing back a gear or 2 before the corner and powering out with the engine singing at 6000rpm or more, you'll want something that revs a lot easier then the 2.6.

[dvsfin]

my 2.6 loves to rev :S lol

[webby]

no offence, but you've obviously never driven something properly revvy.
The 2.6 is a truck engine, when standard it revs slowly and signs off on power delivery at about 5k. That's not what i'd call an engine that loves to rev lol
You're never going to get it to rev like a 20v 4AGE, but theoretically the 2L crank, compression and a decent cam should improve things considerably without having to do an engine conversion.
Again, this is my 2c.

[75wagon]

Just curious as to why you are you thinking of going 2.4?? Is this to avoid getting an engineers report, or just for something different??

I'll need an engineers cert no matter which way I go. The only larger motor I could possibly bolt in without a cert would be the 4G35 1700 Saturn.

Just something I heard of doing, and I just thought, why not?
turbosigma has done it in his Turbo'd GH Sigma. I spoke with him at the Wollongong cruise. He spoke highly of it.
If I hadn't been able to get hold of a 2ltr crank I wouldn't bother. But as this weekend I just managed to get hold of the one Tj was more then willing to part with so I grabbed it.

Thanks GB_BB4C for the pics of the inlet BTW, it all helps.
Have you got a pic in the bay so I can see clearance?

flat tops, high compression, speak to some engine builders about the highest you can run on 98 octane or e85... 11.5:1, efi with a cheap aftermarket ecu and some good tuned length extractors, might crack 100kw

It's never been about outright power for me. I'm not chasing kw's. Anything near 100kw's in a Galant wagon would be fine.

EFI will clean things up and you might need it to get registered anyway (depending on age of the block)

I'll have to look into how old the block is, and I agree. EFI would be the easiest/cleanest option to get through rego.

Thank you everyone for your input.
The main reason I'm asking the questions is because piece by piece I am collecting what I need for my build.
It's been a slow process, and a little frustrating also.
First I had the deal with the car (prosser's wagon), I knew from the first time I saw the car that it would be perfect for a base to build on. Unfortunately, prosser had a change of heart and decided to keep the car instead of selling it. But time payed off and prosser's wagon was put back on the table. It just took 6 months of waiting.
I had already bought the 2.6 conversion from BBYVAL, and I've had it sitting in wait trying to work out what to do with it.

This will be my first engine build where anything will be modified
I'm going to probably be asking lots of questions seeking advice.

Thanks to anyone who has and who will in the future give me advice.

BTW, I don't want to cause any arguments.
I take everyone's advice separately, and consider what they have to say on it's merit.

Dave...

[dvsfin]

lol you have no idea what I have driven, I was joking as to say I thrash my 2.6 meh it's just an astron

[unique10]

sell all the gear off and buy a sr20det create...otherwise just keep the 2.6L if its a car thats gonna be driven daily. the astron makes more power from scratch dosent it? i mean if you work either of them and spend the same amount on either, which would give you more. i reckon the 2.6 personally.

[webby]

dvsfin: maybe you should have said that in the first place? Having an engine that "loves to rev" and having one that you thrash are, in my mind, two very different things.
i apologise if it seemed like i was having a go, because i wasn't.

[Superscan811]

Ask Cheater if a 2.6L will rev. 7500rpm and still able to pull.

It comes down to how it's built and what components you use.

If you want a revvy 2.6L, you need a NARROW BLOCK engine, using a 2.0L flywheel (preferably lightened).
WHY?
Because the 2.0L flywheel is lighter AND the diameter is smaller. Less moments of inertia helps the engine to spin quicker.

The other thing is "There is NO replacement for displacement".

Again, as Cheater pointed out to me, HP is good, but Torque is better.

Cheers.

[unique10]

"There is NO replacement for displacement".

...cept for a turbo

[75wagon]

If you want a revvy 2.6L, you need a NARROW BLOCK engine, using a 2.0L flywheel (preferably lightened).

Why a narrow block?
Is there a difference?

Dave...

[webby]

yep, point taken.
Re: SR20DET conversions, please don't. The only reason those nuggets are so popular is the overabundance of aftermarket support available.

[dvsfin]

I do believe he means use a narrow block because they use a smaller diameter clutch and flywheel

[75wagon]

Re: SR20DET conversions, please don't.

Don't worry, I wont.
As stated above, I plan to use what's in my garage. I can confirm 100% no SR20's are in there.

Dave...

[2Lgalant]

Dave your as bad as me you know how many times I changed my mind on the gb motor until I said eff it I'm going 2l turbo personally I'd go a nicely built 2l as a 2.6 is just to much as u say u don't want nothing with massive power just something for fun and yes I'd go efi I was considering it myself until I went turbo but Dave it's your choice mate it's your car all us guys have diffrent opinions we all are diffrent and have experienced diffrent things . ;) good luck anyway mate

[cheaterparts]

no offence, but you've obviously never driven something properly revvy.
The 2.6 is a truck engine, when standard it revs slowly and signs off on power delivery at about 5k. That's not what i'd call an engine that loves to rev lol
You're never going to get it to rev like a 20v 4AGE, but theoretically the 2L crank, compression and a decent cam should improve things considerably without having to do an engine conversion.
Again, this is my 2c.

Ask Cheater if a 2.6L will rev. 7500rpm and still able to pull.

It comes down to how it's built and what components you use.

If you want a revvy 2.6L, you need a NARROW BLOCK engine, using a 2.0L flywheel (preferably lightened).
WHY?
Because the 2.0L flywheel is lighter AND the diameter is smaller. Less moments of inertia helps the engine to spin quicker.

having built a few 2.6s in N/A form I have a few ideas on them and yes in std form they arn't a revvy engine
however it doesn't take a lot of work to fix that
most of the problem is the weight of the crank and flywheel - most here wont lighten the crank I take 2 Kg out of them
the flywheel std on the wide block weighs in at 16 kg and is about 12" dia changing to the narrow block and using a 2lt flywheel that is about 10 1/2 " dia and lighter that combined with the lighter smaller clutch makes a huge difference

of cause I run a fairly wild cam which still idle fairly well and pull well even under the curve the long stroke of the 2.6 helps
my cam works between 3000 and 6100 ( 6100 the engine hits max power 119.5 Kw atw ) but it still runs past 7000 in all gears and pulls out of corners from 2000 revs easy

I find the biggest advantage of the 2.6 is the torque a lot of the time it saves gear changes - the long stoke engine also produces more than enough torque to over come starting for a stand still with much lighter rotating mass

now as for the question 2.6 or 2.4 - Id go for the 2.6

[orangelancer]

cheater are these efi or carby engines. im following this thread because im looking at going down a similar path

[webby]

one problem, what's out there in terms of clutches for the narrowblock? I haven't been able to find anything other than standard replacement clutches for the 2L, do Evo\VR4 clutches work with the 2l flywheel or do you have to go custom?

[A57C]

^ there's quite a few clutch places that can build to suit

i'll go that route if i ever get to the turbo swap